Oh, Maybe you believe the Mormons as well? Once you start believing some questionable things, there is no end in site what you will believe. Mormons think Jesus Visited America and preached to the native indians. Do you believe that?

lol I think that the person who started this thread was a mormon. And what happened to the part of being respectful of others religions. ldsfriend360 stated that we should be respectful on this thread. I believe TheATA1 is at fault along with Vehcklox because they are both saying things against the others religion.

I have to say I agree with Hot_Karl. (has anyone actually noticed his name?) I think ATA1 and Vehcklox should relize they arent going to change the other person. And who knows maybe they are both right. I think ldsfriend360 (What happened to him) is a mormon just because of the "LDS" part but I dont know if that what he was going for.

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The men who "will turn their ears to fables" seem to be men like the followers of Joseph Smith, or like the Jehovah's Witnesses. Here's why I don't believe in the book of Mormon. Joseph Smith, they see him as a prophet. (which is not to say I don't believe Jesus may have traveled the world, I just don't find it to be a point of any debatable relevance) No doubt in the O.T. there were prophets, who screwed up somewhere along the line and were killed because they did something wrong. I heard an example of this the other day from a preacher on TV about a prophet of the lord in the O.T. who was about to deliver a message to a particular ruler, but was told not to eat or drink anything in the city. When the prophet arrived he met a man and told him he was instructed not to eat or drink anything, but the guy told him in so many words: "oh, well I'm a prophet too, and an angel told me to invite you to drink and eat with me in my house". So the prophet went and disobeyed the lord, thinking what the man was telling him was true. Not long afterward the prophet was devoured by a lion. Here's my reasoning about Joseph Smith. If he really was a prophet of the lord, who was truely given a message to preach, he wouldn't have ended up dead at the hands of an assasin before the whole message could be given, or given directly at that. (wasn't one of the books largely incomplete?) And if he was a real prophet, he must of screwed up by the way he died, and the message which exists shouldn't be trusted. The lord gives caution to those who are able to communicate with him and this is a recurrent theme in the bible. From Wikipedia: "In a letter dated 10 July 1844, one of the jailers wrote that Smith, expecting the Nauvoo Legion, said "Don't trouble yourself ... they've come to rescue me." The Carthage Greys reportedly feigned defense of the jail by firing shots or blanks over the attackers' heads, and some of the Greys reportedly joined the mob, who rushed up the stairs." Instead you have some other guys that were followers split off and make their own sects of the religion immediately, which included such abominations as polygamy (which, considering the verses I quoted in this and other threads makes it absurd). People were always trying to derail or kill the prophets in the O.T., so this wasn't a fluke either. Nowhere in the O.T. do you see an instance of a scenario regarding a prophet whose life is in danger not be warned by divine intervention ahead of time, or having to have his buddy deliver the message after his death. I've read the bible front to cover, and I don't remember anything remotely resembling the odd set of circumbstances surrounding Joseph Smith. Joe doesn't seem to have foretold any prophecy about his own death either. What's more, they all think that prophecy is relative and not set in stone concerning the future. Which may or may not be true, but in the bible, the things which were prophecied came to pass. Here's what I think really happened. You have an example of a mason (Joseph Smith was a mason), who has learned a few things about esotericism, then he begins to practice something he has learned which allows him to speak to charlatans in the astral plane who pose as divine angels. (which is not to say only charlatans are in the astral plane either, just that Joseph's hubris, lack of a complete education, and misfortune led him to that end.) To marry several times, to perform the work as Samael Aun Weor has taught, and in different lives may be necessary if the person's karma is bonded to those different people, and only if directed by God to do so. But never, never at the same time. (which would be polygamy) Men and women need one another as a "help" to meet the challenge of performing the 'work' with the tree of life, which is alchemical. Genesis 2:18 (KJV) "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." But never in adultery. Polygamy is adultery, and those who 'work' must never convolute the energies they're working with, and the heart must be toward a single other until death (physical death, or death of the ego, death of karma) which usually refers to a long period of time. Exodus 20:14 "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Having said this, how did Samael Aun Weor die? He gave his message in full to the people, himself, and his death has an esoteric significance to be celebrated. (December 24th) Yes, the day before Christmas. And what happened to the part of being respectful of others religions. I would just like to say that part of stating what I believe, consists of stating that I view something else as untrue. This is called 'dilineation', and isn't intended to be disrespectful of anyone. I called him my brother, this was to indicate that I respect him, regardless of whether I jest in my posts. If I didn't respect the man, at least to some degree, why would I take the time to answer him? Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." Jesus doesn't come out and say: "hey there are no prophets which will come after me", rather, it appears that he's outlining the rules in order to tell whether someone really is a prophet! Which begs the consideration that perhaps Jesus is actually promoting the notion that there will be more prophets, and by the way, this is how you can tell the difference... I'm not going to completely deny that Joseph had any kind of prophetic or mystical experiences, because there is a story from the History channel about a couple individuals who were aspiring to learn alchemy, and used scrying to make an attempt at divining the nature of the philosopher's stone. Supposably an angel told them one of the requisites for recieving the information was that they'd have to 'not keep one another's wives from the other'. They took this to mean that they should swap wives, when in actuality (in light of the teachings of Theosophy and the doctrine of SAW) the angel was telling them not to be more loyal to their marriage vows than they were to the God who instituted them. (meaning, at some point in time they may need to become obsolete, for the sake of the work) Perhaps this is a viable explanation for the story of Joseph, given that some of his defectees made claims against him after his death, in publishing the only edition of the Nauvoo Expositor. It reeks, I've never heard of any particular depth to the mormon message, esotericly or otherwise. The books of SAW are full of biblical correlation, historical anthropology, prophecy and is chauk full of vital information. It's almost like someone walked up and said: "Hey, I'm going to write a book about how Moses used to chew tobacco on weekends, and enforced mandatory breakdancing on holy days, because the angels told me to. Oh and we're also supposed to break this commandment, for no particular reason" Who cares? So what? There's nothing there, and no reason to make a religion out of it. Jesus always referrenced and cited the old testament when explaining about the 'new'. Samael Aun Weor does this as well. I'm reading about Smith, and it looks like polygammy was just an overhaul of all the old commandments which made them obsolete, and that is rediculous. Not one jot or tittle is removed from the law, till all be fulfilled. The law is not changed, ever, it remains the same. What is fulfilled is the duty of men to save their souls, pay their karma (the law) and become a buddha, then the law is fulfilled and the commandments no longer apply to those who become angels. (hence why Moses broke the law of not killing by murdering the Egyptian slave driver, and why it's permissable for a master to take a different wife to pay karma which before mastery would have been considered adultery) From wikipedia: "Smith taught that all mankind, good and bad alike, will be resurrected and become immortal, receiving back their bodies whole. It is a gift from God provided by Jesus' Atonement. He taught that after the resurrection, "all men will come from the grave as they lie down; whether old or young, there will not be added unto their stature one cubit, neither taken from it."" Immortality is the opposite of death, we're all familiar where the condemned go right? Hell, where there is: A. condemnation, and B. Death. John 5:24 (KJV) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" Having said this, I will re-cite the verse I posted before, which clearly states in the book of Revelation that the right to the tree of life is "earned" by abiding by the commandments, that we are encouraged to earn, and to enter into the gate of the city (heaven). As I said before, it is not enough to believe in Jesus Christ to save your soul, because the semantics of the word: "believe" have been adulterated by time and Roman Catholicism. And I provided that quote from Revelation as a reiteration of this. The word: "believe" implies 'acknowledgement' but ALSO action in according to the acknowledgement. Smith is a false prophet because he's peddling the notion that all mankind will retain immortal bodies, and this isn't true.

I noticed but forgot to say something. haha Don't let TheATA1 know what it is. He'll throw a little hissy fit.

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Amida Buddha: "he refused to accept Buddhahood unless he could grant eternal happiness in the Pure Land to whoever called on him; this compassionate promise was called the "Original Vow." Anyone who calls his name, "Namu Amida Butsu," with sincere faith, trust, and devotion, will be granted by Amida an eternal life of happiness in the Pure Land which has been set aside specifically for those who call on Amida." John 5:24 (KJV) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" NOTICE, Jesus very clearly says: "believeth on him that sent me", here it is not said: "believeth on me". Though there are other instances where Jesus says: "believeth in/me", this can be resolved by looking at another verse which shows us the nature of Jesus's name: John 5:43 "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." It isn't a far cry to assume that Jesus's name itself isn't indicative of himself, he did, after all, come in his father's name (Jesus Christ?). Among the prophets, the greatest is the Christ. Among the Christened, Jesus is the greatest one. He is the only Buddha to have become a Paramathasatya. But in the bible Peter says: Acts 4:10, 12 "Then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.... Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” First of all who does Peter address with this message? Is he addressing the whole world of all time? No. "You and all the people of Israel" and "we". Jesus (Yeshua: Savior) Christ (light and fire, crestos). Light and fire is the savior, the light and fire is not isolated to the man of Nazareth, though he is the most honored among the ones who have recieved it. The holy spirit speaks through him, he is his instrument, but HE IS NOT Jesus (the man), though the holy spirit is Jesus (the savior) This notion of dilineation between a man and the spirit he is "one" with is very clearly evidenced when Jesus makes the statement in: Luke 18:19 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God." It is because of this honor of being the greatest among the christs, that his very name reflects his distinguished title which only he has earned. Truely no other name is necessary, because he is the greatest of them all. Samael Aun Weor is said to be a man who was also born of the light and fire. But among us, the Samaelite Gnostics, we follow the example of Peter and bow to the "most high". The "most high" in Japan, during the life of Amida Buddha was in fact Amida himself, thus they used his name centuries before Jesus. from the book Revolution of the Dialectic by Samael Aun Weor: "Amida, the Japanese Christ of the Shinto Religion, is the one who has the powers to open the doors of Gokurat - Paradise." "The German Eddas mention the Khristos, the God of their Theogony, who similarly to Jesus was born on the 24th of December at midnight; the same occured with Odin, Wotan and Beleno." "Under the sun, every religion is born, grows, develops, multiplies into many sects and dies. This is how it has always been and will always be. Religious principles never die. The religious forms can die but the religious principles, in other words, the eternal values, can never die. They continue; they are re-dressed with new forms. (hence why Jesus taught the parable of old and new wine in old and new wineskins. Also why in Catholicism, the authorities see it as permissable to incorporate the old rituals and idiosyncracies of Pagan religions) If we study religions, if we perform a comparative study of religions, we will then find the worship of Christ within all of them. The only thing that varies is the name given to Christ. The divine Rabbi of Galilee has the same attibutes as Zeus, Apollo, Krishna, Quetzalcoatl, Lao-Tse, Fu-Ji, the Chinese Christ, Buddha, etc. One remains astonished when one carries out a comparative study of religions because all of these sacred religious personages that personify Christ are born on the 24th of December at 12 o'clock midnight. The poor and unknown Hebrew woman Mary, mother of the adorable Savior Jesus the Christ, received the same attributes and cosmic powers as that of the Goddess Isis, Juno, Demeter, Ceres, Vesta, Maia, Adonia, Insobertha, Rea, Cybele, Tonantzin, etc. All of these feminine deities always represent the Divine Mother, the Eternal Cosmic Feminine Principle. Christ is always the child of the Divine Mother. Worship of the Divine Mother is rendered by all the holy religions. Mary is fecundated by the Holy Spirit. Tradition narrates that the Third Logos in the shape of a dove, fecundated the immaculate womb of Mary. The dove is always a phallic symbol. Let us remember Peristhera, numph of the court of Venus, who was transformed into a Dove by love. Among the Chinese, the Christ is Fu-Xi, the Chinese Christ who is miraculously born by the action and grace of the Holy Spirit. While a virgin named Hoa-Se walked on the river bank, she placed her foot on the footstep of the Great Man. Immediately she was affected emotionally seeing herself surrounded by a marvelous splendor and her womb became with child. After twelve years had gone by, on the fourth day of the tenth Moon, at midnight, Fu-Xi was born. He was named Fu-Xi in the memory of the river on whose river bank he was conceived. In Ancient Mexico, Christ is Quetzalcoatl, the Messiah and transformer of the Toltecs".

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This is another example of how Christianity has been adulterated. Saint Thomas insisted to see the wounds in the hands of Christ, before he would believe. He would not accept until he had experienced for himself. As one of Christ's closest followers he is a role model for all. Faith is direct experience, faith is not simply a belief. The word 'believe' when traced back to it's original Latin root etimology reveals more than just an idea or acknowledgement. To truely believe in Jesus Christ is to act according to his words. Works are inseperably adjoined to belief. One does not believe if one does not work. This is how the kingdom of heaven is earned by grace (the grace of having been taught how to work).

I couldn't control my laughter, let's not forget that both Moses and King Solomon had marital relations with black women and this was condoned by God. I gave very concise, practical, comprehensive and thorough esoteric explanations for why I believe in Gnosis. After watching this video on Mormonism, I'm scratching my head wondering why someone would present me this load of bull to ask whether I believe in Joseph Smith.... There's no foundational evidence to even begin to assume...... Lets look at this from another angle, why repopulate the earth? This is a misinterpretation of Genesis which states to: 'grow and multiply', but in what? Babies? NO, grow in the spirit, through the tree of life..... The Mexicans were taught the same way, and now they have so many children crossing the border, and so much poverty, maybe LDS should give it a rest and just usher them from Mexico. Crazy. As shown in the flood stories of other ancient religions I provided a link for, stillbirth and miscarriages are the curse which helps keep the population down. So what do we have today? Stillborn and miscarried babies abound. Joseph is using 'Pop Scripture' and making crap up so that he could become the hippest mayor of Nauvoo, thats all it ever was. If the rediculousness grew any bigger we'd have to label it Scientology. =( Seriously, couldn't you have given me something a little more challenging, like I don't know... Jehova's Witness or something, I haven't studied them much yet either. Sacred Mormon Underwear. I'm not going to say anything bad about sacred underwear, as the Japanese did the same thing, and it's related to the fact that the body is a temple to the holy spirit, and the holy spirit is in sex. 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 “Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.” I think Mormonism is a degenerated tradition which has it's roots in masonry, and masony is a partially incomplete tradition stemming from the Knights Templar. Mormon is an empty shell of it's predacessors, and Joseph Smith was either just a false prophet who is using borrowed language/ideas, or is a divinator of demons.

Dude, what are you ranting on about. Oh my crap your almost as bad TheATA1. why do you keep bashing mormons and saying their false theATA1 already did that and no one listened to him. just because you don't believe what they believe doesn't mean they're false. And don't tell me that your not bashing them. Saying that you would have to call it scientology if it got any bigger had a negative connotation (even though it shouldn't).

I respect them, I respect their choice to believe it, but I don't respect it. So I'm not bashing Mormons, I'm bashing Mormonism. I have a reason though, they claim to have a revelation from the bible, but the immortality belief I cited of theirs from wikipedia shows that it's not supported by the bible at all. The lie is obvious, didn't you understand? It would be a different matter if they didn't claim that their faith is compatable with the bible. The bible is the context of their credibility, and it's the nuse they've hanged themselves with. If I handed you a math textbook, page 1 it says "1+1 = 2", and then someone hands you an "addendum to that textbook" I gave you saying "but 2-1 = 3" then what is that? That's called a lie (unless we're talking about algebra, in which case the context is esoteric, which is why I've also pointed out that I could not find any esoteric significance in the teachings of Mormon), and I don't respect lies. The exemptions I gave cite actual etimology of words which can be referrenced in a Hebrew concordance, or derivitives of Latin. There is a major difference. Respect is due where it has earned it's dues. I'm not here to offend anyone. And besides, I know Jew Jitsu: