same...

so kill people who advocate killing so you can show them that killing is wrong. That's nice, Jaguar. Thanks for demonstrating why this planet is so fucked up.

What do you propose, CR. How else do you deal with evil, what is your recommended course of action against the evil lowlifes of the US military? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=29b_1176330479 I don't understand how anyone can even look at them, with their helmets and hideous goggles and degenerate mugs. I am literally sick at the sight of them, walking around in their body armor. Thankfully an istishhad (martyrdom) bomber just killed 9 of them a little earlier today.

you certainly don't deal with evil by making more of it.

I've been on this board many years, and never known Jaguar to dislike American soldiers this way. He must have had a negative encounter somehow. Living in Belgrade, I don't see how that is possible. Do we have troops there?

but your fallacy is that evil is "destroyed" by killing people, and that simply is not true. You've simply created more, and that evil will generate even more evil. read up on Mahatma Gandi, see how he dealt with evil. Read up on Martin Luther King, Jr., see how he dealt with evil.

I know he has a bad rep with the American right, so you're probably rolling your eyes and laughing under your breath. No I supported the effort to help the Albanians, and bring stability to the people there, even though I was too young to care. Most Americans did too if I recall, even the right wingers. I also felt it was wrong to try and impeach Clinton, and I don't like the evangelicals who were putting him on trial for fondeling female staff members. It's not really the publics business to know who Clinton has affairs with, even though he is a public offical or whatever. It's stupid to put people on trial for oral sex. The only reason I support Bush to this day is because I hate leftest people in general, and how they go on about government coverups, and that 9/11 was a hoax. Taking over Iraq was a stratigic move that the pentagon probably told Bush was the best way. It wasn't Bush's call really. He's just one brain. It took thousands to execute the war. That's what I hate about the left. They are so naive to think it's Bush's war.

Well Clinton wasn't on trial for sex, he was impeached for lying under oath. (Although his lies were about sex.) The inaneness of that scandal goes to show you that times were good during his presidency, people could afford to make a fuss out of nothing. Why does it make you angry when they suggest 9/11 is a hoax? It's not a very simple issue of course, but there's a serious case to be made for it Sometimes I don't agree with people, but I understand what they are saying. So these guys like Dylan Avery aren't "hating America" or "mocking the victims," that is really a misrepresentation of their position Bush is just one man, but he is the symbol of this era. When you have a system built around one man, it collapses when that man is removed. It doesn't matter that there are more capable people around him, it's still based on that one man's authority and appeal Have you noticed that he has lost both houses of parliament and still wants to rule like a pharaoh?

but your fallacy is that evil is "destroyed" by killing people, and that simply is not true. You've simply created more, and that evil will generate even more evil. Right on mate. You can't deal with evil externally.

So what do you suggest be done Jotun

First of all I can't give a solution. If any person could there would be world peace. And I'll warn you now this is VERY long-winded. But you want my thoughts so here they are. Conflict comes from many places. Over material things like land or resources, over something someone has done that another abhors, or over something someone may do that another will abhor. Over the way a person looks or talks or thinks. Or even just for the hell of it. And that's not every reason by a long shot. It's clear that conflict is part of the human spirit. It has been for so long and it seems it's inevitable for things to remain that way. Initially the answer seems to be segregation. If there are groups of people who want to be around others like them, and dislike others who aren't like them, then wouldn't segregating these people into different groups and places solve things? Well, of course it wouldn't. The world is already segregated into countries, religions, cultures and subcultures. And we still fuck each other over without abandon. People still hate other people regardless of where they are. They hate their existence. Oh I know! How about we wipe them out? That cannot solve anything either because the upper tier of people wiping others out will always find a flaw in another. Let's say hypothetically the world is split half and half. One half wipes out the other half. Yay, we got rid of those bastards. Now watch in awe as the remaining people get split into a fraction yet again. As long as the, what would be termed, evil thrives in the human spirit, this will continue to happen. Like division performed on a number over and over. It's infinitely recurring and will never stop. Except in the case of humans it will stop when there's 2 people left and one says to the other "So we've done it, now we have this grand utopian world. Now everyone is like us. However, not.. everyone is perfect." and they kill the other person. That is an obviously extreme example but it demonstrates where extreme, outward violence would lead. Let's take a look at the other side of the coin. I'll take a quote from Ghandi since Cereal mentioned him. "There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for." Now that's a downright noble way of thinking I think. However a vast minority of people thinking like that won't go anywhere, because 6 billion others will have no quarrels flaying their corpse all over the cold earth and eradicating that train of thought from existence. But what if everyone thought like that? I can only speculate what would happen since it's such a foreign concept. It may just lead to crap like we have now, but it also may lead to something completely different. Sadly I can empathise with the genocidal concept mentioned above since that's more akin to how we think nowadays, and I'm certain if we continue this way we'll just ruin our planet and our fellow people. Maybe survivors will realise the folly in our brutal way of life and instill peace in a new population. I don't know. Now when I say someone thinking in the vein of Ghandi gets nowhere I was kind of misleading I think. Someone thinking differently can inspire others to think differently. Just like in, say, science or art. A new way of thinking opens a path to others opening new paths. This can incur an evolution of thought. An enlightenment. This is what I was referring to when I said evil cannot be dealt with externally. Is evil some person taking away your peace? What if you were able to be peaceful in spite of that? An example. Let's say you gain peace from being with your wife. Your best friend sleeps with your wife. Your peace has been shattered. You're going to gut that motherfucker ear from ear. You kill him. His daughter's peace was having such a loving father. Now he's dead. Now her peace was taken away and she can't go on. She hangs herself in sadness. She had a boyfriend who loved her more than even himself. She's gone and he's seething. He takes a knife into a shopping mall and starts killing people left and right. Now this could go on forever so I'll stop it here and get onto what my main point is. Imagine if your peace came from yourself and only yourself. Anything else was just icing on the cake. Your best friend sleeps with your wife and you divorce. Oh well. Your daughter commits suicide and you mourn her. Oh well. You read about a boy slashing people in a shopping mall and say "That's a shame". Oh well. Your peace never ends until you die. And when you die your conciousness ends so you have no need for tangible peace, because you have the greatest peace of all. Nothingness. Now imagine everyone felt this way. The best friend never sleeps with the wife because he is at peace. The daughter doesn't commit suicide because she's at peace. The boy.. I'm sick of typing, you get me. Through individual, introspective enlightenment there will be peace on Earth.

Excellent post, Jotun. You speak the truth when you say that peace comes from within. Naturally, your point is probably going to fall on deaf ears here, since the people here are preoccupied with building new planets in their backyards and alien superraces that control the world... but still, if you look around the world, most of the world's problems are due to issues of ego and wanting control.

As long as one person understood what I meant then it didn't fall on deaf ears. :wink: